Agenda

[Will Stranks]

I was thinking that we should compile a list of things that need to be done or should be started. I know Eric had posted a list of things at some point, so maybe we could start with that. I think it would be good to have a list of several items, then prioritize them and get started.

Mario pointed out that getting a league started should be a priority, and I agree with that, so i'll put it on the list, as well as some things I can remember that people have discussed before. Feel free to add to this, then we can filter out ideas later so add in everything:

1. Starting a leage
2. Getting a Canadian Ranking system in place
3. Having a national tournament, or set of tournaments.

[derce]

-getting big sponsor of all kinds!!

-Create a system, something to attract more players... that already play... and new players in highschools, colleges, universities etc. (scholarships etc)

-find a recurrent and permanent way to pay our itsf membership fees 100%!

-find some back up from the government sport sections (if that is possible considering table soccer isn't an olympic sport)

thats what i can think of for now :) priorities #1: build the system, and #2 : gettib money invested in the association and our projects financed by other people than ourselves

[Jeff Tung]

With regards to a Canadian Ranking system, after watching how the points work in a straight ELO ranking system in both Vancouver and in the United States (although my knowledge of the USTSA ranking is pretty shallow), it has some pretty significant shortcomings when it has only a few data points. A problem that we will definitely face given how big Canada is. An idea I had is to put a multiplier into the ELO formula based upon the distance between the players in the matches.

For example, we will consider Canada to be a straight line from west to east (sorry territories), we can give each area a number.
BC - 1
Alberta - 2
Sask - 3
Manitoba - 4
Ontario - 5
Quebec - 6
Maritime Provinces - 7

A simple multiplier could be the (numbers subtracted + 1) in singles.
For instance a BC player versus Ontario player would be (5-1+1) = 5
A person from the same area would be (X-X+1) = 1
So the BC and Ontario match would have 5 times as many points at stake.

The advantages I see to this is that it automatically scales up the importance of larger events, because that is where the most inter-province matches take place. Also if there are discrepancies in skill levels between areas, this would allow for the problem to be resolved faster. A few players from one area could amass a ton of points rapidly when playing abroad, and "bring the points back" to their local area. Then in the local area, assuming their original rank is accurate, they would bleed the points back to the other players. It's like trickle down economics, the rich players that can afford to travel more often can amass lots of points and then trickle them down to the local players when they return :p.

The disadvantages to this compared to a regular ELO is of course how rapidly points can change when playing outside of your area, it definitely adds an element of instability to the system. Another disadvantage is that obviously some players travel more often than others, and in this system they kind of become the representative of their area which some players may not like.

Also on a completely unrelated note, a Vancouver player mentioned that any money match should be eligible for entry into the system (I think it was Earl). I like the idea, and I think any extra data we can get for ranking should be grabbed.

Any comments/suggestions on this would be appreciated.

[Eric Dunn]

i'd even suggest to extend this to events in the states, and internationally as well. They should be weighted higher.

I've written an Elo system once, so do understand that yes it is possible to adjust the K value, where it would adjust the amount of points awarded. We had a similar yet simpler thinking in our first implementation. local events only awarded a maximum of 25 points, where larger events awarded a maximum of 50. Where that system fell apart is a lack of promoters entering their results. So it kind of died off.

So ease of use, and motivation to enter results is a must if not the highest priority with a ranking system we come up with.

I'll have to check out netfoos. sounds promising

[Will Stranks]

"i'd even suggest to extend this to events in the states, and internationally as well. They should be weighted higher."

The only problem is that we would have to rate international players as well on our system, which would create a much larger player database. I suppose we could just not show there points in our canadian system, but if we had to enter results from large events it would be hard. Especially because we are not running the event. If the event is run off netfoos like maryland states this past weekend(where tony spredeman won open singles, doubles, and mixed) then it would be easy to combine it with the system.

Obviously it would optimal if every tournament was run on the same system, but because that doesn't happen we would need to manually input every bracket, and then the people that are really good but don't have any points in our system would drastically effect our system. Lets say fredrico beats eric dunn in worlds, if we add that in it would look like eric lost to a rookie. I'm not sure how to solve that.

[Jeff Tung]

It's definitely tough to motivate people to enter results. Especially if the user interface isn't great. But if it is tied in with selecting Team Canada and our National Champion, that might get enough players interested to push for more diligent result entering.

Replying to the US/INTL point and Will's response about accounting for matches not involving Canadian players. A possible (but probably controversial) solution to this would be to award points based on overall result when playing abroad. It would probably take a lot of work to establish all the different tiers we would have to rank the international events on, but once that's done it would be pretty easy to use.

A random example with random numbers could be
50 points for a 1st
40 for a 2nd
30 for a 3rd
20 for a 4th

multiplied by
1 if its an Amateur Event
2 if its a Semi-Pro
3 if its a Pro
4 if its a Open/Masters

multiplied by
1 if its a State Level Tournament
2 if its a tournament with over 50k in prize purse
3 if its a World Title

and they could expire after a period of time if we want.

This clearly favors players that play abroad now. But that may not be a bad thing if that's the kind of experience we want when selecting Team Canada/National Champion.

[Will Stranks]

That is a good idea, also it would only slightly favour traveling players because the points would be stolen from them when they return if the local players are better.
I.e. Lets say player A goes to worlds and comes in 4th in open singles.20 x 4 x 3 = 240 points.
Then lets say he comes back to canada and loses to player B consistently for a month. Player B will have taken a large amount of those points from Player A.
I think a system like that would work, although the points should go deeper. A finish like 33rd in open at worlds should be worth something... it would just take a bit of tweaking but its really a good idea.

[Eric Dunn]

I like my VP already!!

Things to add to the list:

- How we determine our National Champions for entry into ITSF World Championships
- How we determine who's on our World Cup Team for entry into ITSF World Cup

If we have time to start up a league, etc that would be great, but the main priority (however boring) of TSAC is to represent Canada in ITSF matters - and doing this for the past few years has been a full time job with the amount of involvement we've had in the past.

It would be great if we could intertwine all these priorities. If we had both a ranking system, and league system that fed into who our national champions, and world cup team members are, then that would be optimal.

So i don't mind spending time on these other things as long as they help us fulfill our main priorities.

[Todd Williams]

Could you elaborate on the involvment/required work to satisfy the ITSF representation? What do you have to dedicate the most time to - are there more mundane tasks that you could spread around to relieve some pressure such that you could concentrate on the more pressing items? I would certainly volunteer to help in these regards (if it makes sense).

[Eric Dunn]

Well it seems every time we need to assemble a team to enter some ITSF related event (various world championships like Tornado Worlds, world cup, and itsf world championships) we have to devise a fair process under short time frame, and then carry out that process.

Now that we've done this a few times, it would be great if we didnt have to come up with and vote to accept a process to determine the makeup of these teams every time. If we can come up with something that is repeatable and fair, then that would take a lot of the load off, and it would only be a matter of carrying out well known procedures, or announcements based on known systems.

Then there's always at least 2-3 emails a month from the ITSF that require some type of response.

and ultimately we have to pay the ITSF membership dues, and this again we do not have a tried and true process to raise the funds for this.

[Will Stranks]

On netfoos.com you can see that I started an Edmonton league. We only have 2 weeks of data running on ELO, and the points have sorted themselves out decently already. The top 5 on the list are probably 5 of the top 6 or 7 in Edmonton.

I like the idea of the multiplier, but at the same time it would be very difficult to implement that on a match by match basis.

In my opinion it would be easy to run a Canadian league on netfoos.com. Instead of it just being “Edmonton foosball” and Ottawa foosball, we could just make one league, “Canada foosball” or whatever we want to call it. Each tournament director for each area could have login capabilities easily.

The player database is VERY easy to use, and the points are VERY easy to use. It uses ELO, and we could do something to the effect of increasing the importance of bigger events. You can adjust the ELO multiplier by event instead of by each match. So if we have a large national tournament, it could be the highest, and local DYP etc would be the smallest for the multiplier. We could change that so that when people from another city come to play, the points double. I.e. if Calgary guys come to Edmonton, all points would be worth twice the normal amount.

Another benefit of netfoos is that even if 4 people want to have a singles tournament, in a city with a small player base, they can do that and keep adding in results. Then when they end up playing other people from other cities it would make the points system even more accurate.

As Eric said, I agree that it is crucial that we use these points and league system to determine our national champions and world cup team.

I honestly believe that this would work. Especially if we incorporate events that do not include Canadians, like Worlds in Dallas or HOFC. If we can find a way to work in points from IFP or USTSA tournaments it may help us to come up with a more accurate “world cup team.”

So far we have:

1. How we determine our National Champions for entry into ITSF World Championships
2. How we determine who's on our World Cup Team for entry into ITSF World Cup
3. Starting a league
4. Create a system to attract current and new players into our league/points format
5. Getting big sponsors
6. find a recurrent and permanent way to pay our itsf membership fees 100%
7. find some back up from the government sport sections (if that is possible considering table soccer isn't an olympic sport)

I would completely volunteer to run the “canadian league” if no one else wants that responsibility, but it would take some convincing to get other people that run locals to submit results to me. It would be easiest if whoever runs different leagues would just run there league off of netfoos, which is free and easy to use.

Also, I can guarantee that I could find us large sponsors. I have an ok track record so far, as even for our Edmonton league which I started 2 weeks ago I have gateway adding in money to our pot, and sleemans paid for the lights above our tables. Also I will be going on the team 1260 to talk about our league in the near future, and Gateway has agreed to air radio commercials advertising our league.

Any thoughts?

[derce]

wow Will way to go man. That's ideas like that that we need to promote and look for more players and sponsors. wow radio commercials 2 thumbs up man! :) we need more good ideas lke this

For a counry-wide league... i don't understand the format. it would be run in every city? And then what? For example, I run a league here in Montreal, how would/could/should it be incorporated in the ''Canadian league'' if that was possible? Would the formats of the leagues be predetermined? nore detail on that please :)

for the country-wide ranking system, and the ideas of giving more points to people who go in other tournaments, i would like to add a precision. Because from what i see, it looks like a good idea, or at least the intention is there, but it looks like he would be giving more points to a guy who went compete in a tournament in the usa compared to be playing a tournament in another city IN CANADA. Don't get me wrong, I think that it is important to give credit to some1 who places well in a tournament with big challenge, but the point here is to get canadians face each-other!!!! So some1 would only want to play in usa big calibre tournaments and get big points, never face any other canadian... and be #1.. We have to promote the sport in between ourselves. Share the learning in between our country, like a real sport not only thinking about money like some would do. So promoting yes the participation in tournaments exterior of your hometown is good, and promote the participation in high calibre tournaments aswell, but keeping in mind that we have to look at it in a bigger scale, FOOSBALL IN CANADA...
anyways hope what i said makes sense and people at least understood what my idea is.

as for using netfoos, if it is that easy to use, i would like some1 to explain it to me cuz i dont seem to get it, i regsistered but i have a hard time with it. i built myself a ranking system in excel format during the past months, out of what i knew from the software...(even made me learn stuff off of it) and i find it reall easy to use. just was wondering it netfoos is realy worth it.

anyways hope i helped and people can help me aswell :)

[Will Stranks]

Ok we would probably need to run the same format countrwide. That would be difficult. The only real options on netfoos right now are double elimination or single elimination tournaments. I know Mark Winter – the creator of netfoos – is willing to work with people on making netfoos adapt to the structure that previous tournaments have used. There are a couple of city specific brackets on the site because of this.

In my opinion (and this is open to suggestions) we should use the current format that we are using in Edmonton. I know it sounds selfish for me to say this, but I think it is the best system to keep the most people happy.


The first two weeks we have run open doubles and beginner doubles on the same night, running at the same time. It is really easy to coordinate multiple events on netfoos too, as it reduces the conflicts for you. It shows which table # people are playing on, it shows which matches are available to call next, and which ones would create conflicts by color coding the players. Everyone that comes to our event pays $5 entry, and gets in to open doubles for that. We draw up that bracket, and it is BYP, I know lots of times the best 2 players will always want to play with eachother, and we have rules that winning teams can’t play together the next week. We have had about 20 people both weeks so far. All of the beginner players also get entered into the Beginner doubles for free, because they paid to play open doubles. We know most beginners can’t win open doubles, so they get to play for prize money in beginner doubles without paying entry into it. The bar we play at sponsors 25-50 dollars into our tournament. All of that money is awarded to the beginner doubles tournament. Also the open doubles tournament pays out money like this: 50% to 1st place, 25% to second place, 25% to highest team with at least 1 beginner player. This encourages pro’s to play with beginners. Last week myself and a beginner came in 4th and we won 25 bucks. Two advantages so far are that pretty much everyone has played about the same amount of games each week, because beginners mostly got knocked out of open quickly, but they play in beginner doubles also so they get more playing time that way, which is good. In the two weeks, pro/expert players have made about 65% of the total money paid out, so the beginners aren’t too far out for that either.

This coming week we are using the points that we have in place off just 2 weeks, and having a Pro-Am draw. The top half of players will draw a partner from the bottom half. Again this is equal for everyone and the payouts will be equal to beginner and pro’s alike. To compliment it we will run a fun event like fwd shootout, goalie wars, or a oneball tournament – we won’t be entering that one on netfoos though, its just for fun.

If you look at players results so far in Edmonton, the points each person has accumulated is very accurate. There are a couple of examples where a good player has played with beginner players both weeks, and they don’t have as many points as 2 pro teams, however this will even out over time.

There are a lot of different options available, like open DYP, seeded DYP, beginner and open doubles, singles, pro am dyp, and more that I haven’t thought of yet I am sure. Each city would be able to run any of these formats, whichever nights of the week they want, and simply enter the tournament themselves into the same database.

The downside is that you cant really handicap games, without effecting the points system. Although some people do enjoy handicapping, I think other ways, like explained above, should compensate for the lack of handicapped games. From experience so far, the beginners have been happy as have the pro’s.

I can assure you that netfoos is good, however I don’t think that means we need to write off other options. This is one thing I have brought forward because I know it would work for sure, and we haven’t seen any other options yet. If other people are interested in presenting there own ideas we should discuss all of the options that are presented.

I think we should focus on making sure the league system that we start can accomplish the two goals that Eric brought up:
1. Determine national champions
2. Help decide on our world cup team

It would be good if we can also use it to attract large sponsors. I think this will not be too hard if we have the whole country playing in a united league so that our player base is quite large.

Derce, if you need help, email me questions and I will give you answers. You may have only registered as a user, and not as an admin. Both are free to register for, but they are separate regestrations.
[e-mail]